September 11, 2005
More Katrina Notes
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Newsweek has Bush at 38%.
On the whole Bush-hates-blacks thing:
The right-wing defense of this is that liberals are claiming that Bush consciously held back, that he looked at black faces on TV and said, hey, they're mostly black there, so I'll just let them suffer for several days." Which of course, is not even close to the real accusations.
Consider it this way: you're in an office on the 24th floor of a building when you hear news that down the street, there has just been a major accident with considerable damage, and rescue crews will not be able to make it there for some time. You think that you could go down there and help out, but more likely you figure that the job is being handled and you can stay put.
Now consider the same story, with one difference: you hear that among the victims were your own family members. Without doubt, you will instantly jump out of your seat, race down to the accident site, and move heaven and earth to get the job done yourself.
That you would not have had this instant, strong reaction in the first scenario does not mean that you actively decided to let the people suffer, it just means that you didn't have the connection to the disaster that made you get off your ass and make sure that things were getting done. It's someone else's problem, and things will get done. It's more of an unconscious distinction, not a thinking one.
This is the dichotomy we saw in action when it came to New Orleans. A good president and good public administrators will consider all Americans to be their family and will react accordingly. They will have that gut reaction which spurs them to put fire under everyone's asses. That is the reaction Bush would have had if it were Kennebunkport or Houston that got hit. You think that if a white, affluent community were being hammered by a natural disaster that Bush would stay on vacation, strum a guitar, or have cake with John McCain? Don't be ludicrous.
It's not that Bush said to himself, let the black people suffer. It's rather that they weren't his people, and so he had no gut response, and didn't light any fires under anyone to get the lead out. Now, maybe if he hadn't been busy dismantling FEMA and stacking its administrators with cronies so he can pay them off for favors done, then things might have actually been handled well without Bush getting on their backs about it. But because he did screw up FEMA, and he did not jump out of his chair when Katrina hit, that's his fault, his responsibility.
Okay, enough with the comparison between Giuliani vs. Nagin, because it's not even close to fair. Everybody talks about Giuliani and his hero moment, walking down the street calmly and giving orders, reassuring the people, and how we haven't seen that from Nagin. You want to know why? Giuliani was not neck-deep in water with corpses floating by and the news media miles away. Giuliani had to deal with a relatively small area of Manhattan under fire, but most everywhere else was OK, structurally at least. He could talk to people. Emergency vehicles could go places. Not to belittle 9/11, but in the limited scope of Manhattan, it was a far more manageable crisis than Katrina. Had Giuliani been surrounded by floodwaters, his communications knocked out by a storm, the TV cameras unable to record his "Giuliani-moment" hero shot, and the federal government letting him rot for five days, I have a feeling he wouldn't have fared quite as well. He'd be screaming for help and mad as hell, too.
New Rule: you can't attack Nagin with buses. The right wing has found their favorite graphic image, that being the school buses sitting in a flooded bus yard in New Orleans. They adore it. It's everywhere on the right-wing blogosphere, and now the media is beginning to pick up on it. The idea is that the buses could have been used but were not, and that Nagin is to blame for it. That's the web-wide right-wing talking point. They tack on the idea that Nagin waited too long for the mandatory evacuation, and they're in glee for someone to shift the blame to, and off of their dear leader Bush--as if Nagin making any errors means that Bush didn't, or that Bush's errors are now okay.
Of course, it's total bull. The timeline shows that: Sunday morning 1 am, Katrina upgraded to Category 4 (anything less would not have triggered a mandatory evacuation), 9:30 am, Nagin calls for the mandatory evacuation, 6 am Monday morning, Katrina makes landfall. Now, you could fault Nagin for waiting eight and a half hours before making the evacuation order--what his reasons for waiting were, I do not know and will not guess--but the whole bus evacuation thing is idiotic, and the idea that he could have called the mandatory evacuation in time to do it right is also fiction. The plan requires two days to carry out. Katrina was not upgraded to Category 4 until 29 hours before it hit, so even if Nagin had jumped right to it the moment the upgrade came, he still would have been 20 hours too late.
Could Nagin have seen the possibility of Katrina hitting New Orleans specifically and being a Category 4 or higher 20 hours before it became official? Yes. However, city and state officials do not evacuate entire cities based on guesses.
About the buses: what if Nagin had mobilized them right away? First off, there were nowhere near enough buses to get even a sizable percentage of the people out within 29 hours. Second, the logistics would have been horrendous: you try to find 500 school bus drivers in a city where everyone is hightailing out of there. Could inexperienced drivers have been used? Sure, if you wanted a guaranteed percentage of accidents and screw-ups leading to several deaths and many more injuries. And last, but not least, given the time frame, even with the best of planning, most of those buses would have been stuck on roads out of New Orleans when the full force of Katrina hit, probably killing hundreds of people right there.
Walter Maestri, Director of Emergency Management in New Orleans, said in an interview with Bill Maher that the buses were, in fact, being used in the limited ways they could be used for, and were returned when all that could be done was done.
The fact is, the buses were used, as well as they could be, before Katrina hit, to get people to safety as well as could be done. That the people bused to the Superdome languished and starved and died was not the fault of Nagin or anyone else locally. It was the fault of the federal government, which could get rescue efforts to Indonesia within 48 hours but took more than twice that long to get things started up for New Orleans. Nagin sent people to the Superdome expecting the federal government to do its job. Bush fumbled the handoff.
So enough with the bus crap. Nagin probably did make his share of mistakes, and maybe some of those screw-ups cost lives, but it is just as likely that Nagin's decisions and actions saved more lives. He cannot be blamed, at the very least, for the fact that he carried out plans with the expectation that the Bush administration would react and have help on the ground within 48 hours. If Bush had done things right, the majority of the horrors of the aftermath could have been avoided.
Deal with it.
I haven't seen much of the TV coverage of Katrina outside of CNN, but what I have seen in addition to the Internet and print media reinforces what I have stated before: that while the media is content to blame New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin directly, while they are content to blame Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco directly, while they are content to have at Michael Brown directly, there is a decided aversion in the mainstream press to name President Bush directly as someone responsible for the disastrous relief efforts. You'll hear "government" being blamed, FEMA being blamed, and especially the local Democrats (but never, strangely, the Republicans in Mississippi though they had similar problems) being blamed, but rarely if ever, in a mainstream news story, will you hear or see or read that Bush was the one who screwed up.
Yes, the talking heads will go over it, the blogs will mention it, the op-eds will talk about it. But in the mainstream stories, while others catch heat, Bush is not among them. Do a Google News search for "Bush is responsible," and you get mostly blogs or op-eds, but other than that just tame mainstream reports that "some allege that Bush is responsible," or "a slew of partisans have already declared that George W. Bush is responsible," more often than not refuting claims that Bush is responsible for anything.
In short, Bush is getting a major-league bye from the mainstream press on this disaster, despite the rather blatant screw-up which he is directly responsible for. A press that shows no problem with blaming individuals, just not Bush directly. There is the feeling that the press has gotten its stones back, that it is now more willing to rail and fight when they see something outrageous. But if that exists, it still stops at the White House porch.
This media is cowed.
Luis,
I'm including, and I hope you get, a link to Wikipedia which has Katrina timeline on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina
Based on this, and another write-up of the timeline that I read (can't remember the blog but it was a conservative one), I find it hard to blame President Bush, Michael Brown, or even Governor Blanco, for anything. Forces were pre-positioned as best they could be (can't have stuff sitting right where the hurricane is going to hit and risk those), federal response was quite fast with the US Navy and Coast Guard initiating rescue operations the day after the hurricane passed. I can see faulting FEMA when they were saying that the city was NOT being flooded when it was ,in fact, flooding due to the levee breaches. But that can't be considered incompetence or poor management but lack of effective communications in an incredibly fluid environnment. Mr Chertoff not being aware of folks in the Convention Center is also, apparently, the result of a lack of comunications because no one told the feds (nor did too many folks within the city, including the local paper, know until Thursday morning) about the Convention Center since the Convention Center was not part of the original evacuation plan.
"...That the people bused to the Superdome languished and starved and died was not the fault of Nagin or anyone else locally...."
Negative. This was entirely the fault of Mayor Nagin and the city emergency planning staff. Mayor Nagin should've ensured that the Superdome was stocked with provisions since it was part of the hurricane plan that the Superdome be used as a shelter. Instead, folks were told to come to the Superdome with 3 days worth of food, water, and clothing. C'mon... the city should've handled that part. As for your position that the mayor couldn't get the buses moving in time (because he didn't find out til too late that the hurricane was Cat4) or couldn't find bus drivers is bogus, too.
"....you try to find 500 school bus drivers in a city where everyone is hightailing out of there...."
All of this could've been mitigated by thorough and proper planning. Upon hearing that such a storm was heading their way, the mayor should've alerted his primary and stand-by drivers and given them what we call a WARNO -warning order....something is about to happen, so be prepared. Be prepared should've included locating all of the bus drivers (phone roster with home addresses and a strip-map to the home would help) to execute the city evac plan, should that become necessary, and a logistics plan to deploy and preposition buses at the various locations (particulary in areas with high-risk folks, like the elderly and poor). Once the storm was identified as Cat 4, the evac plan could've been properly executed. If such planning did occur, it was not implemented. This is not the fault of the federal government but the city government. Leaders PLAN! That's a big part of their job. Mayor Nagin did not do that part of his job.
Posted by: Morgan at September 13, 2005 04:50 AM
Based on this, and another write-up of the timeline that I read (can't remember the blog but it was a conservative one), I find it hard to blame President Bush, Michael Brown, or even Governor Blanco, for anything. Forces were pre-positioned as best they could be (can't have stuff sitting right where the hurricane is going to hit and risk those), federal response was quite fast with the US Navy and Coast Guard initiating rescue operations the day after the hurricane passed.You call this an argument? One general article missing huge numbers of facts on the storm, and an uncited right-wing article? No specifics to support your statement? I hope you never handed your university professors essays as thinly supported as this statement--you'd clearly flunk.
How many troops were needed, and did they all arrive as fast as they could? The Wikipedia article you cite only says that 475 National Guardsmen arrive in New Orleans two days after Katrina struck--and only the promise of more is mentioned, but when they actually arrive is not. You call that proof that response was fast? That's your evidence? Sorry, but that's worse than lame. Exactly where were troops stationed and ready, how many were ready, when did they get the go-ahead order?
This article demonstrates that aside from a few hundred Guardsmen here and there, it took four to five days for the Guard to arrive in force. That's "quite fast"? I'd like to hear you say that after you've been sitting on your roof for four days without food and water.
"people bused to the Superdome languished and starved and died" ... This was entirely the fault of Mayor Nagin and the city emergency planning staff. Mayor Nagin should've ensured that the Superdome was stocked with provisions...Ah. So Nagin was at fault because the federal government should have arrived in one or two days, but instead they took four to five days to arrive. Good logic there.
As for your position that the mayor couldn't get the buses moving in time (because he didn't find out til too late that the hurricane was Cat4) or couldn't find bus drivers is bogus, too. And your evidence is...? Apparently non-existent. More good logic there!
Once the storm was identified as Cat 4, the evac plan could've been properly executed....And you completely ignore the timing. Not to mention your overly-simplistic overall view of disaster planning. You think that even with the best of planning, you could get tens of thousands of destitute people out of NOLA with 29 hours' notice? Get real. There was barely time enough to get some people to the Superdome. Attempting to get even a portion of that number out of the state by bus with so little time before the storm is a pipe dream. Easy enough for you to say "with planning" it would happen--that ain't proof, my friend. Try actually doing it. Tell me you're aware of all the logistics, how long things take to get into place, routes, fuel, etc., and then that you can prove it was eminently doable--I'd be more impressed with that than your throwing out a few tidbits of disaster-planning terminology you read somewhere, as if you knew anything about the subject. But to say Nagin was at fault when you have no idea in hell of the logistics involved is the worst kind of Sunday-morning back-seat kibitzing I've ever heard of.
I like how I spend a few hours putting together timelines and demonstrating a case, and your response is simply that "it's bogus" or to point to a completely under-detailed article and act like the proof is in there if I look hard enough. Frankly, I'm tired of spending gobs of time actually researching stuff only to have you flippantly dismiss it and never provide anything even close to good evidence to support your own case or deny mine. Rail away. I won't waste any more time with you here. But don't expect me to even come close to respecting your continuously unsourced, unevidenced and arbitrary rants.
Posted by: Luis at September 13, 2005 10:33 AM
I do have one final point:
Despite the fact that Nagin only had 29 hours warning, you fault him severely for not evacuating 30,000+ unorganized, destitute civilians.
At the same time, you excuse Bush for taking four to five days (seven to eight if you count from when Blanco declared a state of emergency) to move the same number of highly organized national guardsmen into NOLA after the storm had passed.
Amazing that you think it's acceptable for the President of the United States to take 4-5 days to do something, and yet the mayor of one city can do something even harder in just over one day.
This cannot be reconciled or defended. Though I'm sure you'll mention that you once read a right-wing blog that did so, but you can't remember where it was or what it said.
Posted by: Luis at September 13, 2005 11:26 AM
"....Try actually doing it. Tell me you're aware of all the logistics, how long things take to get into place, routes, fuel, etc., and then that you can prove it was eminently doable--I'd be more impressed with that than your throwing out a few tidbits of disaster-planning terminology you read somewhere, as if you knew anything about the subject...."
As the assistant brigade logistics officer, 3rd Brigade, 101st ABN DIV (AASLT), I helped to coordinate, supervise, execute, and manage the movement (and maintain accountability) of several hundred vehicles and shipping containers by truck, air, and rail from FT Campbell, KY to FT Polk, LA, Jacksonville, FLA, and Newport News/ FT Story, VA. I was responsible for developing the load plan tables and coordinating the efforts of several battalion S4s (logistics officer) in moving, loading, deploying, unloading, reloading, redeploying, and returning said items to FT Campbell, KY. I ensured that the necessary rail cars and trucks were on-hand, especially the trucks that required satellite tracking, to execute the deployment plan. This was in addition to my combat-focused mission: moving stuff by air, sea, truck, and rail through a combat zone. I do have some experience in logistics....you?
As for disaster-planning, I'm no expert (that would be my friend, Greg) but I'm familiar with our brigade's additional mission which is MSCA (military support to civilian authorities). This includes hurricane relief efforts. We were briefed about Hurricane Katrina and the potential of deploying our MSCA team and what we would likely face when we got to the affected areas, as well as who we would answer to, who was providing our communications, lodging, meals, and a rough idea of how long we might be down there. What's your background?
Mayor Nagin did not have a validated plan to get his folks out of the city (though there was a plan to get folks out through the use of their own private cars...not bad if you have one). Mayor Nagin had 29 hours. You can do quite a bit in 29 hours....though I admit I don't know what else the mayor was facing during those 29 hours. But he should've, at a minimum, had a plan for evacuating those that were at high-risk...poor and elderly....and yes, I'll reference the hundreds of school buses sitting in the now-flooded parking lot.
You say Bush didn't get folks in there for 4-5 days. Well, perhaps you'd like to enlighten us on how that many troops, with that much equipment, can get anywhere quickly when faced with flooding, debris and other obstacles blocked and damaged roads, washed out bridges, etc (Mayor Nagin and Louisiana would not have faced such obstacles since the evacuation would've taken place prior to the damage to roads, bridges, levees). Not to mention the mobilization orders for the troops involved, time to report to their armories, issue equipment, issue an operations order, check manifests, get road and convoy clearance from state police, get and maintain communucations with higher headquarters (that may change depending on their location and actual mission), marshall at their staging areas, get additional equipment (like boats for the flooded areas), so on and so on....
The feds had folks in the damaged areas rather fast. But due to the amount and geographic extent of the damage, additional ground forces were hampered in getting into the area. Hardly President Bush's fault.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 14, 2005 04:53 AM
I had to read that kind of carefully before I realized that you were saying that you didn't actually face the realities of the situation, but that you were briefed on what might be encountered; it takes a re-reading of your post to see that you speak fully in theory. Are you personally aware of the obstacles that were in fact encountered? Are you personally aware of when all of the units were activated and given the go-ahead to move? Do you know for a fact that it was the obstacles in the roads that caused the delay and not the delaying of the administration? The answer, I am fairly certain, is "no." Read on below.
You challenge me to describe how that many troops could get through such damaged areas in such a short time: am I mistaken in the idea that this is their job? Is this not what they are trained for and equipped for? Are you saying that with one to three days advanced planning (the state of emergency which should have activated them came three days before the storm, yes?) that these troops, trained to get through war zones, were delayed by 4-5 days getting there? Where were the aircraft that could perform food and supply drops? Were they blocked by road debris? Were the guard troops really stopped by the flooding? The answer, I am fairly certain, is "no." Read below.
You are presenting yourself here as an authority in matters such as this, which is intimidating--but a close reading seems to indicate that you actually don't know very much about what actually happened, how, and when. For example, you make a very strong suggestion (without actually saying so) that your awareness of the situation is in such detail that you can verify that it took 4-5 days for military troops to make their way through "with that much equipment, can get anywhere quickly when faced with flooding, debris and other obstacles blocked and damaged roads, washed out bridges, etc."
So: if you are actually aware that those were the conditions and that the national guardsmen were baffled by them, set back, blocked, confounded and delayed for four days... tell me then, how did thousands of refugees out of New Orleans, riding on buses, get from New Orleans to Houston beginning one day after the storm, taking less than 10 hours to arrive? They must be riding super buses! If only out national guard units had some of those, they could have gotten through in time! Sorry, but all of your official knowledge and use of names and numbers can't blind me to the fact that some roads were obviously clear. Airports in the area operable. There is no doubt in my mind that thousands of troops could have started arriving very early on--were they given the go-ahead, and that is where the Bush administration made the screw up.
But if I am wrong and you do have official--or at least specific--information showing that wrong, please let me know.
As for NOLA before the storm--how do you know that Nagin did not have a validated plan? Have you checked or been officially informed? How did you know that a validated plan was indeed possible? Do you understand the logistics of moving elderly and infirmed patients via schoolbus--all of their physical and medical needs met on a vehicle with simple bench seats, no lavatory facilites or medical assistance--with 29 hours notice, driving out on roads packed with fleeing civilians, with any delay possibly causing said buses to get hit by the hurricane while in transit?
Posted by: Luis at September 14, 2005 11:28 AM
"....Are you personally aware of the obstacles that were in fact encountered? Are you personally aware of when all of the units were activated and given the go-ahead to move? Do you know for a fact that it was the obstacles in the roads that caused the delay and not the delaying of the administration? The answer, I am fairly certain, is "no." ..."
Give me a break. That's like asking you if you are personally aware if President Bush was lying each time you claim he was lying. Are you? Nope. As for awareness of what the incoming rescue/ relief personnel faced, I can surmise based on what I've seen of past hurricane-disaster relief efforts, as well as what we were briefed on, not to mention common sense. Any area hit with as hurricane (with winds of 120 MPH or more) is going to have significant damage, including debris (like trees, houses, cars) littering roadways. Throw in some flooding and you've got serious problems. Do you have any idea how long it can take to clear roads? Remove obstacles? Multiple obstacles? Bypass washed out bridges? What are you always told when you come to a flooded road....don't drive thru. Why? It might be deeper than you think. If that was the case with some incoming units, they may have requested boats. Who knows how long that can take. Additionally, I have a pretty good idea of how long it can take a Guard unit to mobilize, muster at the armory, determine who can deploy and who cannot, who's present and who is not, issue equipment, take acountability, issue an OPORD, get moving, and get on-station since I've spent the last 3 rather long years working with the Guard mobilizing, training, evaluating, and validating them for overseas deployment. I'm fully aware of their capabilities.
"...some roads were obviously clear..."
Then why didn't the mayor and governor make use of these early on, before the storm hit? If the buses could move that many folks out of the city that quickly after the storm, why wasn't that done before the storm?
"...Where were the aircraft that could perform food and supply drops?..."
They were on-station and operating by the following morning. As I understand it, search-and-rescue was the primary focus initially, followed by food/ supply delivery. This was covered on the news as well. You know that.
"...You are presenting yourself here as an authority in matters such as this..."
I am no authority on disaster relief efforts....never claimed to be. But my questions to you regarding logistics experience and disaster relief preparedness was in answer to your statement about my knoweledge of logistics planning. I also noticed you didn't answer my questions about your own background in such matters.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 14, 2005 01:25 PM
Luis,
Sorry again about the above anonymous post. Got ahead of myself.
Posted by: Morgan at September 14, 2005 01:53 PM
"....Are you personally aware of the obstacles that were in fact encountered? ..."
Give me a break. That's like asking you if you are personally aware if President Bush was lying each time you claim he was lying. Are you? Nope.Tell me which lies, and I'll give you what evidence proves it or not. But that does not mean my point was not valid: it was. You claim--or at least make it sound like you know--that the NG was delayed by logistics and storm damage; asking what you know specifically is fully reasonable. I take it that you do not know when the orders were given or what actual damage was in their way. You gave theory, impressions, guesses, dressed up with a resume that clearly implied that you know what you're talking about. So I asked if you know what you're talking about--and clearly you do not, outside of pure theory. I won't give you a break on that, sorry.
As for awareness of what the incoming rescue/ relief personnel faced,... I'm fully aware of their capabilities. And again, reading this graf, it is apparent that all this is theory and you know nothing about what actually happened--unless you'd like to clear that up. Will you state definitively that (a) they were given the orders to move right away, and (b) the delays were in fact fully justifiable, indeed caused by storm damage as you clearly suggest--and be able to back those statements up?
"...some roads were obviously clear..."
Then why didn't the mayor and governor make use of these early on, before the storm hit?First of all, you are completely dodging the question: if school buses could get from downtown NOLA to Houston in less than ten hours one day after the storm hit, how can you possibly claim that the NG was unable to get in because of the debris and damage? Instead, you continue to intimate (citing experience and common sense) that the damage slowed them without making any declarative statements that this actually happened--while completely ignoring the fact that a large number of civilian buses made it out in short time. You dodge this question just as you dodged the key question of 'when did the orders come to move'?
To answer your question, I have stated many times already: there was little warning time. Hell, in your last post you talked about all the logistics of moving NG troops aside from the storm damage (staging areas, getting troops together, deploying, redeploying, supplying, etc.) and still you seem to think it's easier for the mayor of a town in the middle of a huge evacuation to handle all the logistics specific to a situation just as fubared and have everyone safe and clear, all in 29 hours. As I asked before, how do you know that the whole bus-before-the-storm idea wasn't studied and dismissed beforehand for good reason?
If the buses could move that many folks out of the city that quickly after the storm, why wasn't that done before the storm?More than double the preparation time; coordination from the outside to have buses and drivers brought in; the lack of a mass evacuation taking place as it was before the storm; the people to be moved were already in one place; no storm or weather threatened to hit while the people were in transit after the storm; and I'm sure other factors I can't come up with off the top of my head.
Posted by: Luis at September 14, 2005 01:53 PM
"Tell me you're aware of all the logistics...""As the assistant brigade logistics officer..."I just realized that I asked if you were aware of the logistics of moving civilians out of NOLA 29 hours before a hurricane hits, and you answered that you know military logistics. Hardly the same thing. Does your training including rounding up civilians all over a major city and organizing them for evac? Does it involve the availability of civilian resources using civilian budgets with all the pushes and pulls of local, state and national politicians? Does it involve moving elderly and infirmed patients and seeing to their medical needs? Does it involve coordinating centers of refuge for mass numbers of untrained, non-coordinated civilians including children and the elderly? My point is that while you may be able to speak on military movements, you know almost as little as I do about the logistics of moving that many people out of NOLA on school buses a day before a Cat 5 hurricane hits.
But you do use that authority as someone who knows logistics to justify the 4-5 day response of the NG troops as reasonable, while at the same time claiming this knowledge of logistics that says 29 hours was enough for the mayor of NOLA. Again, you can't have it both ways: either it's easy or its hard. You can't say its easy for Nagin and hard for the NG.
I'll give you that you know something of NG logistics. So how come a bunch of civilians on buses beat you guys by three days? You can talk all you want about what can be encountered after a hurricane, but that proves nothing about what was encountered after this one, nor whether Bush was lacking in his responsibilities for the response.
More reasons why buses could make it out after the storm and not before: The trip out of NOLA takes more than half a day one-way, and there weren't enough buses to get even most people out before the storm hit, so what resources were available were used to get everyone to a safe local shelter instead of evacuating a minority and leaving the rest without any shelter. Another reason: the buses outbound before the storm would have to follow slow traffic with all those other people leaving; after the storm, the roads outbound had far less traffic. Also, high winds could have brought down trees or other roadblocks with no warning, which might endanger thousands of people on buses with a storm bearing down, while facing these roadblocks after the storm would be far less dangerous. Again, all I can think of now, I'll probably come up with even more later. But surely a man with experience in logistics like yourself should, from the reasons I've given so far, see how getting people out after a storm could be safer and easier than doing so just before.
Posted by: Luis at September 14, 2005 03:48 PM
Did I know when the movement orders were issued, did I know what obstacles, if any, the units encountered, am I aware of the damage in the areas affected, yada, yada, yada. I do not know the actual specifics nor have I made such a claim. But based on my experience (hands-on, training, annoying briefings), I can extrapolate and get a pretty good idea. Am I 100% correct? Probably not. But my educated guess, I suspect, is a bit closer to reality than what I read from you. I'm guessing that you have absolutely no experience in logistics, disaster relief preparation, nor personnel movement (yes, I have some idea of what it might take to move patients via bus, car, ambulance since I was a medic during my first 4 years in the Army). Are there differences between military and civilian logistics, especially regarding disaster management efforts? Of course, but the fundamentals behind each remain fairly similiar: organization, coordination, personnel and equipment acountability, and planning, planning, planning. Does everything always go according to plan? Rarely....so move on to Plan B, then Plan C, if necessary, and so on and so on...
I'm not saying the relief efforts were/ are perfect, though it doesn't look THAT bad to me. After all, rescue teams were operating in the area immediately after the storm passed and significant forces got in the affected areas shortly afterwards. But reading your blog and that of other I-hate-Bush types gives me the impression that you folks have not considered some of the specifics involved with such efforts. You don't just jump on the transporter and beam several thousand troops and relief workers into a disaster area overnight. Unfortunately, it takes time....and coordination for such efforts might have been smoother if Louisiana and especially NOLA had the appropriate folks in place to execute coordination (NOLA police come to mind).
I'm sure we'll soon learn what mistakes were made at all levels and appropriate measures will be taken against those responsible. This is what usually happens, even within the federal government (surprisingly). But to constantly claim that EVERYTHING was the fault of President Bush doesn't make sense, especially considering how vital state and local efforts are in such matters. Florida in 2004 survived 4 hurricanes with no major issues like what is confronting Louisiana (I don't recall any Fla cities being flooded...siginficant difference there, I know). This probably had much to do with the state's disaster management plan and the fact that they get to exercise it almost every year. Had Louisiana been equally prepared, the current situation might be less of a media circus.
Posted by: Morgan at September 15, 2005 12:15 AM
I'll let you have the last word, and we'll leave it at that. As you say, the post-mortem will tell us more.
FYI, BTW: Nagin on Russert explaining some things we've spoken about. Not to your satisfaction, I am sure--but then again, not wholly to mine, either.
Posted by: Luis at September 15, 2005 12:21 AM
Okay, maybe I won't leave you with the last word here. This article just surfaced:The crowd in the Superdome, the city's shelter of last resort, was already larger than expected. But Mr. Brown said he was relieved to see that the mayor had a detailed list of priorities, starting with help to evacuate the Superdome.Mr. Brown passed the list on to the state emergency operations center in Baton Rouge, but when he returned that evening he was surprised to find that nothing had been done."I am just screaming at my F.C.O., 'Where are the helicopters?' " he recalled. " 'Where is the National Guard? Where is all the stuff that the mayor wanted?' "But really, it's too early to play the "blame game." ;-)
Posted by: Luis at September 15, 2005 04:18 PM
my unit in the army moved 356,000 disabled people in iraq thru the the wilderness in the mountains in 6.5 hours without harm and these people dont even drive cars and when put in a position of driving a bus they can and will without great disaster. not one person harmed. gilluni in new york lol would have been in the boats pulling people from the water. from my understanding mayor nagin was not even in the city till after the storm was gone and it was safe to return. not once did i se him on a boat !!!!!!!!! every time he was seen on tv is with a political figure. as far as im concerned this mayor left his people to fight for themselves. hands down this mayor was a total piece of shit.
Posted by: ken at February 5, 2006 10:07 PM
